From kicking goals to doing deals: Meet Charlie Yankos and Brad Lord

I recently interviewed Brad Lord and Charlie Yankos, who are great clients of mine and business partners at RWC (Ray White Commercial) Greater Sydney South.

Their story is fascinating — not only are they business partners, but they’re also family; Charlie is married to Brad's mum.

Their insights into maintaining a strong partnership struck me as a reminder of the power of collaboration and underpin the importance of mutual respect in any environment.

And then there are compelling individual stories:

⚽ As a former captain of the Socceroos (the Australian national men’s football team), Charlie reveals lessons about teamwork, discipline and leadership that helped him forge a successful post-professional athlete career in the cut-and-thrust world of commercial real estate.

📈 After time in residential real estate and commercial property management, Brad moved into commercial sales and leasing, and he shares some practical steps he took, that others can follow, to make a smoother transition into a transaction-driven, commission-based role.

If you’re navigating change, exploring partnerships, interested in leadership or just a football fanatic, their experience will provide you with a ton of valuable perspectives.

Listen to the full story with Brad and Charlie in episode 180 of Commercial Real Estate Leadership – I believe you’ll find it as enlightening as I did!

Episode transcript:

If you ask anyone who knows anything about Australian football, that is about soccer, and the greatest goal of all time, they will tell you about a free kick from 1988 against Argentina.

It was around what was called 40 yards about 35, 36 meters out and it was kicked by a man named Charlie Yankos, who actually was one of the great free kicks of all time in Australian soccer.

We're going to meet that man along with his business partner, Brad Lord in today's episode.

Hello, and welcome to episode 180 of Commercial Real Estate Leadership. I'm your host Darren Krakowiak.

And I'm really excited to be able to bring you another interview today.

If you're a commercial real estate leader who wants to get your business growing faster and especially if you're one with a business partner, I'm sure that what we're going to be talking about today will resonate with you.

It is Brad and Charlie; we'll be meeting them in just a moment.

Because I've got two fantastic commercial real estate principals from RWC, Ray White Commercial, right at Sydney South.

And I really do love working with business partners. It's great to see the dynamic of two people who have two different skill sets, complementary skill sets, but also a common value and purpose coming together and to build something great. That's exactly what Charlie and Brad are doing.

If, as a result of today's interview, you'd like to talk to me about how it is that we can help you to grow your business, I want you to find us on Instagram.

So go to Instagram @cresuccess and just send me a DM the word 'Grow'.

It's all you need to do. If you send me that word 'Grow' in a DM on Instagram, I'll know that you would like to have a conversation about your business.

With that being said let's get right into today's interview.

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Darren Krakowiak
Brad Lord and Charlie Yankos, welcome to Commercial Real Estate Leadership.

Brad Lord
Thanks, guys. Cheers.

Darren Krakowiak
Really appreciate you guys being here. And there's something unique about your relationship, which people might not be aware of from the look of view or the name, and that is that Brad's mum is married to Charlie, correct?

Charlie Yankos
Right. Yeah.

Darren Krakowiak
Okay. So, I don't know how long that marriage has been going on. So, I guess my first question is, did you follow Charlie into commercial real estate, Brad? Or is that just a coincidence?

Brad Lord
I suppose technically, because I was like 14.

Charlie Yankos
Something like 12, I think.

Brad Lord
So yeah, I suppose technically, you could argue that. But mate, I always wanted to do something that involved and I followed, you know that, after sort of finishing playing rugby league, that you know, I wouldn't have a career, which I dealt with people and there was a career night that came up in England for another brand at the time. And I went along and went, "Okay, well, if I can't play rugby league, then that's what I'm going to do." So, I went straight into real estate from there. Not in commercial, but was in real estate. And I think, I suppose at 17 years of age, mate, you don't really understand what your parents do too well. You don't really have that deep understanding, but yeah, I don't know. No, I don't think I've followed you into it, but very happy with where I've landed anyway.

Charlie Yankos
Well, in saying that, also, his mother did go to that same night and she moved from being a sales rep doing other things, merchandising and sell went into real estate. So, getting into the real estate game, and she did it for a long, long time in the residential side. Fortunately, it wasn't in the same area that I was, so we never clashed. But it was always good that, you know, she was very successful in her career and that certainly assisted in the whole way the family sort of evolved and got involved into the real estate game.

Darren Krakowiak
Fantastic. So I'm sure Brad, you forge your own path. But I was just curious whether Charlie was on the scene yet when you did get into real estate. So fast forward, obviously, many years and now your business partners. How did that happen? Like, who initiated the conversation? Why did you decide to get into business together?

Brad Lord
There was a conversation you and I had, Darren, where, you know, you sort of said, "The cream rises to the top." So, I think there's always something within an individual from time to time that says, you know what, not just being an employee or having profit share. It's just not enough. You know, there's a lot of hours obviously, that gets put in and sure it can be rewarding, but there's also the stuff that people don't see but below the tip of the iceberg. So, we actually cross paths and work together previously with a different role with the White family in their sort of investment and advisory arm. That was sort of post GFC when I was made redundant from one of the major sorts of brands. And it was the first time really that we work together outside of family public use and just talking general real estate. And I suppose for a series of through a couple of years of that, you know, in working together, it was sort of like, you know, you came together and then we sold a number of assets and I was sort of headhunted to go elsewhere and moved on. I think both of us were just traveling a long way and a lot of time, obviously, both residents in Sutherland Shire. I was driving to Parramatta sort of every day, which could be an hour, could be two hours, depending on what happened. And Charlie was doing a lot of travel in the state with his respective role, and he sort of always just kept coming back to, you know, we just need to be closer to home. You jump before I did?

Charlie Yankos
Yeah, certainly did. You know, obviously, working with the right White family and Dan very closely. It was one of those opportunities at the time to move to, do what I really wanted to do probably, 15 years earlier. And, you know, at that time, the opportunity was here to do something in the Greater Sydney South area. So, you know, working closely with the family and the New South Wales team, we sort of branch at the time and set up the office here. And then Brad came on board, not long after that, as a partner up, and you know, as I said, it's me moving well, and it's really good, because we're nice and close, and close to the family, and close to where our environment and our space that we feel comfortable with. And it's given us a better opportunity, I suppose to be focused in the market, and also to be close to where we work. And there's not a lot of waste of time, in our lives. And our lives go very quick. We work really hard. And all of a sudden, you know, time goes. And we know that happens. And it's so important that we have a good balance of our workplace and our life and our family environments. And this is an opportunity that was too good to refuse. And that's why we ended up doing it.

Darren Krakowiak
I guess you obviously knew each other extremely well, before you got into business together. And I'm curious about how is it that you keep challenging each other to bring out the best in yourselves and the best in each other?

Brad Lord
Look, I guess the benefit that we do have is the different generations. So, you know, obviously, me being younger

Charlie Yankos
Not much younger, by the way.

Brad Lord
I mean, that's something that, I think, you know, still keeps, the youthfulness on the generation side, but you sort of go back a couple of years, we had some challenging environments externally. And the more mature side helps to provide that steadiness to someone who's like, "Oh, it's not working, it's not working." So, you know, it's kind of a, not necessarily like a yin and yang situation. But I think there's a lot of balance, because you are, and you aren't the same. And I think that's really where our strength is.

Charlie Yankos
And I think he's right. And you know, at the end of the day, I've been around a long time now, whether that's good or bad, I don't know. It's good to have Brad, he's really hungry and wants to expand and grow, and so on. And it's easy for me to say, "look, I can just go and retire." But I don't want to do that. That's not what I'm about, you know, I enjoy what I do. And while I'm enjoying it, I want to keep actively involved in that. And it's good to see also the way the business is going to evolve over time. And that's what this is important. For me, it's not just purely now, it's really about what happens down the track in the future. You know, with Brad, a lot of our family members are in the property game somewhere along the way in all different fields. And that's good to see. Because, you know, I feel really proud that these guys have stepped up to the plate and taken on responsibility of certain roles. And you know, they're keen and really excited about what they're doing in this particular field. And sometimes, you know, the barbecues at home, everyone's talking the same lingo. But at the end of the day, it's something that I think is worthwhile for us all. You know, at the end of the day, we've got some commonality there.

Darren Krakowiak
I think not everyone is going to have the benefit of being able to go into business with somebody who they've obviously already done it so much due diligence on in their personal life. So, I guess my last question around this partnership thing is, what would you be thinking about in terms of what to look for in somebody else as a business partner? And maybe if in the future, you were to bring someone else into the business? What sort of things would you be thinking about?

Charlie Yankos
Look, I think that's interesting, because there's got to be a common goal at the end of the guy, right? Whatever that looks like, and it evolves. It's not necessarily a one. You know, you set a goal today, and its sort of going to be like that, because the market constantly changes, right? And it's important to have people that if you are to bring a partner, that they understand they bring some value to the business, that's an important component. But also, they understand that, you know, in tough times, you got to assess the market, and you got to be flexible enough to be able to work together to come to an outcome, right? Because you know, you can force one person to be more dominant than the other person. But that doesn't necessarily mean to leads to a good decision. So, it's important that everyone has a voice. And we debate things. That's not to say that Brad and I don't always, you know, we agree on everything. No, that's not the case. It's more about the rational thinking about why we are going to do something. And the pros, the cons, and all of those things that we talked about in business, as soon as you've had a meaningful debate, then you can actually have a meaningful outcome. And that's what I think you need to have in any relationship, whether it's a family, husband, wife, kids, whatever, it's about everyone getting an opportunity to voice their opinion. Nothing's right, nothing's wrong, it's more about what is the better, best thing for the business moving forward.

Brad Lord
And echo that, but also to add that alignment of core values, right? That is absolutely key before anything else. It's, if one person's fully respectful, and the other person is just, you know, a bull in a China shop, there's going to be friction right from the start. So, as I said, alignment in terms of the way you do business before you get into bed is ultimately the key for me.

Charlie Yankos
Another thing I think that's important is that, you know, you can't do everything yourself, right? if you have that approach all the time, you're going to be 24/7 on the business. You can never have a break. You can never have a balanced life. So, you need to have support around you. And that's an important component, because you need to recharge the batteries. You can't just constantly be working, working, and working. So that's why it's important to have other people that you can rely on, to give you the opportunity to take a period of time away, and knowing that the business is still going to be able to operate. That doesn't mean that you're abroad, and you know, switch off everything. You can still be involved, but you don't have to be actively involved all the time. Because you know, somebody else is there to support. And I think that's an important component in any partnership relationship in any business model. At the end of the day, you need to have confidence that the other person can assist while you're not there to deliver.

Darren Krakowiak
Yep, exactly. Yeah. 100%. I want to ask a couple of questions to you individually. I'm going to start with Charlie. Now, people who would be familiar with your background. Significant person in Australian sporting history, recipient of the Medal of the Order of Australia. And you know, so many different accolades that I won't go through now because people can Google a name and they'll say all of them. But one that kind of got my attention was the fact you even have a street named after you. Or at least that's what Wikipedia says. So, I'm just curious, how does that honor get bestowed on somebody where, particularly Yankos, which is not like a common Aussie name. Like, how does that happen?

Charlie Yankos
Oh look, it's a bit of a surprise actually. I was at Blacktown and the Mayor came up to me once and sort of said, "Oh look, there's a subdivision that's happening around Ballantyne Park", at the time, which is the home of football for New South Wales. And you know, Charlie Ballantyne had a whole lot of land in it and they were subdividing it. They were going to name some streets after some Socceroos or former Socceroos. And would I be interested? And I said, "Oh, yeah, okay. If you want to do that." And I never thought much of it. And about three or four years later, all of a sudden there's a name up there. It's my street name. So, that's how it happened because it's part of the area where, you know, the home of football is for New South Wales. I just wish they would give me a couple of blocks of land. That would have been better rather than the sign, right? Cause it probably worth a fortune now.

Darren Krakowiak
As far as I can tell, you don't trade off your name, which I think is very honorable, because you're our representative straight at the Olympics, former captain of the Socceroos. But I am, I guess, curious to know around what it is that you've been able to draw from your experience, in leadership, in particular leading that team and what you've taken into your business career and developed further in commercial real estate?

Charlie Yankos
Well, there's a number of things that I sort of looked at, and I think there's just sort of evolves, it's not something that I sort of premeditated, and this is what's going to happen, right? Because when I was playing football, it was more about enjoyment. I enjoyed it. And a lot of things happen. But one of the key factors is that nothing ever came easy. So, if there's this thing about you can go there and you can be successful by doing this only, then that's the wrong thing. And same thing in business. At the end of the day, you have to work more, you have to work harder, you have to be better than somebody else who's going to compete with you for the same role. So, as we know, in football, 11 players, and there's a massive pyramid of people that wanted get to that top. So as soon as you're there, the hardest thing is to stay there. So, you have to be better constantly, and more consistent, more constantly than somebody else who wants to roll from you. So, I'll look at that the same thing in business and taking that on board and saying, "Well, okay, you have to work, you have to work hard, but you have to work also smart in what you do." And to me what it is, there's nothing easy. So, if there was a simple tablet that I could take to make me fit, I would have taken an appetite, right? There's no such thing, right? At the end of the day, likewise, in our business, so for me, it's about you know, when you have an environment or a situation, what I found in sport is that you have to assess the situation at that time and you have to make decisions right at that time in a game. You might have the best game plan, but when you go out there, you got an opponent, right? So, the circumstances and things change. Same in business. You have a marketing campaign, and you put your property up for sale, all of a sudden, you think everything's going well, and then the market changes. So, you have to think, and you have to adapt to that situation to try to get the outcome. You can't just rely on somebody else to do it for you. And I think that's the thing that I took from my sport into this game.

Darren Krakowiak
I think it was the great philosopher, Mike Tyson, who said that everyone has a plan until you get punched in the face.

Charlie Yankos
Exactly.

Darren Krakowiak
Brad, I want to ask you about your background and your successful switch from Asset Management and Property Management into Sales and Leasing. Because I deal with a lot of people who are working in property management, and they want to make that change. They want to move across to sales and leasing. But they may be lacking the confidence or maybe they just don't know how to go about making that change. So, what can you I guess, share with people who may be struggling to take the plunge? How has that, I guess, background in asset management, property management actually been an advantage for you in sales and leasing in the marketplace?

Brad Lord
So, I think, I suppose the benefit of asset management or property management is you're paid a higher salary to do the job, right? If you're in sales, it's a lower base salary with the potential to make a lot more money than potentially what you could do. So, there's always this kind of, you know, what is it? So, you know, for me, I had my lifestyle really pinged to what my income was, and that's probably no different from the majority of people. So, I was fortunate enough, sort of over my career that I managed to come back to the Ray White group, with quite a good business leader, who was open to changing the norm. So, I couldn't have had a structure like I had with him at one of the major agencies. It just wasn't something that could happen. I tried to do it, and there was like this kind of referral thing, but I never benefited individually, by referring things to the sales team, the leasing guys, investment guys, like whoever it was. So, it was really, I suppose the way that the Ray White group is set up, where it obviously is a franchise business, but they really elevate their leaders to be entrepreneurs with that backing. And I think the guidance of that has been great. So really, I was able to change a bit of a structure. So, I still got paid a base, but I also was paid a percentage of commission for all the deals that I was doing. So, it initially started off as more like a BDM sort of style, where I get a percentage of the management fee for bringing on new managements. But then I sort of went well, there was a gap in what the direction that business was going in, at the time, residential development, site sales were like at breakneck speed heading in that direction. And that's obviously where the money was. So, I don't sort of see that was a something they should have changed from, because that's what the flavor of the month was, we're I'm looking at it going okay, asset management. I need investors, I need people buying buildings for investment purposes, so that I can then manage them. So, through the process of that, I ended up starting to do some of those. And I'd find existing clients that go and buy assets, and we've actually broke the deal. So, it kind of like a slow transition into what it waw. You know, you sort of go back to the relationship and the partnership here is. Look, I had a situation where I went, okay, if I can build up enough cash behind me that will allow me to survive for six months, and it doesn't work. At least I've had a crack. At least I won't, you know, get to 40 and go, you know, I'm now sort of it's too late for me to try something. You know, it was a case of I had to build up enough cash behind me to take the plunge and take the step. And I thought if it doesn't work, I'll be able to walk back into another major agency. So, I've got the experiences and credentials, I can just go back into being a staff member and employee somewhere and elevated salary back in that space. It doesn't mean to say that the confidence grows overnight. It's a very different role. I mean, there's conversations you have. And it's like, you know that you know, your pistols in the air going up, you know, I can do no wrong, I'm untouchable. Bit like when you score a goal in a country, but you know, there are also times when you go, you have bad phone call after bad phone call, after I'm withdrawing my offer after those sorts of things. So, it's emotionally, it's harder on the sales side, but the rewards obviously there as well. So, as I said, we're six years now since taking that plunge. So, a little bit more than the six months that I set myself for. So yeah, that's kind of how the transition worked for me.

Darren Krakowiak
It sounds a little bit about, you know, being in the right situation in terms of the leader, the business that you're in, but also just having a think about, well, what's the worst that could happen? And the worst that can happen is that you get back to your old job, but you're going to have a crack, and you give yourself that buffer and you back yourself. So, there's some really practical ways to look at that.

Brad Lord
And we do that, with our advice with our clients as well, I'd say, in any transaction is kept the downside, right. So, if you kept your downside, what's the worst that can happen. If you can live with that, what's the worst that can happen? What's just that? And if you can live with it, then why not proceed?

Charlie Yankos
But the other thing I think, also is the if you had the can-do attitude, at the end of the day, you're going to be successful. You're going to be you know it, as long as you know what you want to do, and you got to put the hard work in there. And you know, that you got to set that approach up, and you got to go for it. And you got to believe in yourself. And I think the beauty about running your own business is that you can only blame one person or two people yourself. That's the same when I was playing football. At the end of the day, you're taking on the responsibility of whether you're taking a free kick, or you're taking a penalty, right? At the end of the day, if you believe you're going to fail, you're going to fail. It's as simple as that. It's as much in the mind as it is anywhere else. And if you believe in anything that you can do that you can succeed, you will succeed, right? And it depends on what level you want to get to, that's going to determine how hard you're going to go for it or whatever. But I think that's what is good about running your own business. That's what I found. And I've worked for a lot of the big institutional owners, right? But the best thing I ever do those I believe is working for myself. Because I think I control the outcomes, right? The harder I work, the more I make. That's the reality to it at the end of the day.

Darren Krakowiak
I think, just as you were speaking there, Charlie, I was thinking of the word responsibility, and you took the word right out of my mouth. And that's what it is. I just want to spend the last five minutes talking about the relationship that we've built up over the past, I guess, year and a half really now that we've been working together. And Brad, I want to start with you on this one. And can you just tell me a little bit of what was going on in your business before we started working together?

Brad Lord
Look at day to day, week to week, month to month, it's sort of you're working in the business and on the business. You always say, I've got to step out, I've got to look in, I've got to take the lid off, got to look in. And it was just a process of, you just never find the time to do it. So, I think you've done a couple of sorts of online seminars and whatnot through COVID with, you know, the Ray White group, which I obviously really enjoyed. We build up a bit of a relationship there and, you know, what have you and really, our feeling was, we need someone to sort of help provide a bit of guidance to help us to take us out of our business and look into the business, to sort of make sure you get really clear on your goals and your desirables and your culture and then to be held accountable to that. Not to say that with your partner, you don't do that. But business is business, right? You get busy, you go, okay, you know, it's low tide. Like, I need to get income in, right? Oh, it's high tide. Oh, how much do we distribute? It's easy to just get caught up in that. And you know, the benefit that we're paying in working with you for the 18 months is looking at all those little areas of the business and getting really clear on what it is that we stand for, what it is that we get out of bed for, and to be held accountable to those, you know, on a consistent basis. So that's been the major benefit for us in working with you that lasted 18 months.

Charlie Yankos
I'd say I'll extend it a little bit if I put my soccer or football analogy into it. As a player, most players have a certain level of the top-level complaint, right? So, there's not anything there that you can say they can't achieve. They know how to kick, they know how to hit it, they know how to run, they know how to do all of that stuff. But at the end of the day, you have a coach or you have other people that sit outside there can provide advice across the whole game. Right? And that's what I found is good in dealing with yourself. We can sort of, you challenge us in terms of, you know, how we're going about the, across the different areas at a specific time, depending on what's happening in the market. But the other thing that's been great is being able to find and share some of the other experiences that other business owners and leaders you know, having in different markets or the same market. And we don't necessarily do that. We can turn around and say, yeah, we can pick up a phone and call someone, but it's not necessarily the same. So, it's great that we're able to sit with you or sit with the other business leaders and have dialogue. They share experiences in a very comprehensive way. And I think that's what's been really great for me.

Darren Krakowiak
Awesome. I think there's a bit of trust involved when you invite an outsider to come and work with you inside your business. And obviously, we have some, I guess, confidential, but also some open conversations. And I'm curious to know, Brad, what I guess hesitations maybe did you have? I know, it took you a couple of months before we pulled the trigger. What was going through your mind? And what was it it eventually helped you decide to move forward?

Brad Lord
Look, again, when you run your own business, again, it's a case of I said before, you know, you got high tide and low tide, right? I refer to cash flow that way. You know, you sometimes, you've got plenty of money there, sometimes you don't have any money there, right? It's just the nature of a sales business. Look, the apprehension was more around, you know, ensuring there was enough cash flow to maintain, you know, it was really, you know, is there value in it, right? So, anything you put your money into, you want to get a return out of. You put people on, you want to get the best out of those people. You know, so it's more about, having that attention to I'm putting my money into something and I'm working hard for I want to be able to get something out of it. But it was also, it's not an arrogant thing, but you sort of just go well, you know how to play the game, to take your comments before, right? It's like, you know what you're doing. And it's more about just sharpening that, right? It's more about just, sometimes you go, oh, geez, I feel like the market's changed a little bit at the moment. And inquiries kind of changing. And then it's reassuring that it's not just us. But when you say, yeah, some of my other clients are actually saying the same thing. So, there was hesitation, but there wasn't. I don't know why there was the hesitation or why didn't you do something. It's like, I know I need to go to the gym, but I'll go tomorrow. You know, you just so you sort of put it off? Because it's not something that comes naturally, right? It's something that's a little bit hard. You know it's going to hurt a little bit. You know, you're going to have to reflect. You know, it's in some cases, Darren, it's a bit like, looking at yourself in the mirror in the morning. So, I mean, you clearly do your hair every day. But really it comes down to like, how often do you really look at that person that's staring back at you in the mirror, right? It's uncomfortable when you start doing it at first, right? But over time, if you start to actually be nice to that person, it's a lot easier, right? So anyway, there's a couple of themes in that. That's something that I definitely worked on. And I say that to my kids all the time. The difference is that I actually like the person who stares back at me in the mirror, and that's a cool thing. It's a comfort thing. So, it's uncomfortable at first, like it was potentially reaching out and. starting our relationship. But now we're married, it's like, okay, yeah, this is actually better than I thought.

Darren Krakowiak
I know, commercial real estate agents are good on their feet. So, I'm going to ask you a question without notice and see if you can see how quickly you can come up with the answer. What's the word that comes to mind to describe the process of us working together? What's the first word that comes to mind?

Charlie Yankos
Clarity

Brad Lord
Consistent

Darren Krakowiak
Awesome. Last question because we've been talking for a while and I know you've got to get back and start doing more deals. Do you have any advice for commercial real estate principals like yourself who might be thinking about doing this work? Not necessarily with me, but just doing the work of investing in themselves?

Charlie Yankos
Yeah, look, I think it's important that you do that. And you've got to do a progressively as well. You know, there's certain levels. So, when you're doing your training of any form, you've got to train within the limits of your capability at that point in time. Don't try to learn everything way up here when you haven't got the skill set to do that. So, for me, if you're going to do it, you've got to learn and you've got to learn and have a good base foundation of what you want to achieve. So, if you want to become a salesperson, make sure you understand the fundamentals of selling before you start getting into a real in-depth training, if you, in advice and things like that. So that's, what's important for me.

Darren Krakowiak
Brad?

Brad Lord
Yeah, for me, the advice would be, and look, we we're in an industry which, look, there's no doubt about it, you have to have, some ego. There's far less, I think, in commercial than there is in residential. But I think it's really a case of humbling yourself to be receptive of either criticism suggestions for change. That would be my two big things there. So, and as I said, you know, that's, we've obviously been an open book with you, which is, you know, which has been great. But the more you give, the more you get.

Darren Krakowiak
Really good answers. So, Charlie saying, really think about where you are on the journey. And Brad sort of saying you might not be as good as you think you are, if I boil it down.

Brad Lord
Yeah.

Darren Krakowiak
Charlie, Brad, really fantastic to have you on the show. And I really am grateful and appreciative of you being clients. So, thank you for giving me your trust. And it's been wonderful getting to know you. I'm going to see you in person again next week, which I'm looking forward to. But for now, I want to say thank you very much for joining me on commercial real estate leadership.

Charlie Yankos
I appreciate it. Thanks so much. Cheers.