Passion, personal branding and building a performance-based culture

It’s time to do the opposite.

Will Tong - the Founder of Property Lions, host of the WTF podcast and client of CRE Success – is interviewing me on Commercial Real Estate Leadership.

In this episode, I spill the beans about my personal journey over two decades in the industry.

I share some of the pivotal moments that led to me moving overseas, taking on more responsibility in global firms, and then eventually founding CRE Success in 2020.

Will's line of questioning led to discussions on the benefits of finding your passion, the power of personal branding and the ingredients that business owners can use to build a performance-based culture within their firms. 

This episode is packed with actionable insights for anyone looking to enhance their leadership skills, build their business acumen and pursue their ambition.

I hope you enjoy listening to episode 183 of Commercial Real Estate Leadership.

Episode transcript:

In our last few episodes, I've had the privilege of interviewing a few clients of mine from CRE Success.

So, I thought maybe it was time to flip the script and to invite one of my clients to interview me.

Well, that's not quite how it happened. He invited me to come on to his podcast. 

And then I humbly requested if I could use the interview to share with you on this podcast. So, that's what we're going to be doing in today's episode.

Hello, and welcome to episode 183 of Commercial Real Estate Leadership. I'm your host Darren Krakowiak.

And if you've got a commercial real estate business, and you want it to grow faster, then I can help.

Find me on LinkedIn and send me a DM with the word 'Grow'. 

If you send me the word 'Grow', I'll know what you're looking for. So, find me on LinkedIn. There are links in the show notes for you to do that.

You can also find CRE Success on Instagram. We are @cresuccess, all one word.

Again, send me a DM with the word 'Grow' and we can have a conversation about what it is that we can do to help you get your business growing.

And it's a new financial year here in Australia. The financial year in Australia starts on the 1st of July.

So, it's a fantastic time for you to be setting some new goals, casting forward a new vision and executing on a plan that is going to get your business growing into this new financial year and growing sustainably beyond that as well.

In today's episode, Will Tong is kind of our special guest. He's actually interviewing me.

This is a clip from the WTF Podcast. You're wondering, "what the ***"

No! That's ‘Will Tong and friends.’ WTF Podcast.

So, that's the name of the podcast. And Will got me up to Sydney. I'm based in Melbourne to be interviewed on video. So, we'll be releasing the video of this episode as well.

And I tell you what; he spoke to me for about an hour and 20 minutes, which is so much longer than we typically would do for an episode on this show.

So, what I'm going to do is I'm going to break up the interview into two parts.

We'll do part one today and we'll do part two in our next episode.

For now, I'll pass over to Will. Sit back, relax and enjoy.

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Will Tong 

Welcome everybody to another episode of WTF Podcast. Today we have a very special guest. Today we have one of Australia's top commercial real estate agency coaches, Darren Krakowiak. Welcome to the show.

Darren Krakowiak 

Will, great to see you.

Will Tong 

Lovely to see you. Great to have you here. I know you just fell off from Melbourne.

Darren Krakowiak 

I did this morning. Yeah, 

Will Tong 

Yeah. How's your flight?

Darren Krakowiak 

The flight was good. I was sitting next to this guy. I'm going to the footy tonight to see Carlton play the Swans, and he was going as well, and I noticed that he was, but I didn't want to start a conversation with him, because otherwise I might be stuck talking about footy for the whole flight. But I did have a peek on his phone because he was an older guy with big text, and he was complaining about body odor to somebody he was texting. So, I don't know if he was complaining about me or not, but if I have a smell, I apologize.

Will Tong 

Oh, no, that's okay. I can't smell anything. I don't think the audience can smell it either. So, it's all good.

Darren Krakowiak 

It's not smell on vision.

Will Tong 

We don't have that technology just yet. Well, look, I'm glad you could fly down. Thanks for coming over here to this podcast studio. I got a lot of questions I want to ask you because I think given your background and given what you're doing right now, it's going to add a lot of value to my audience and to me, especially as well. And so, what I want to do is maybe just go back down memory lane a little bit and I want to say what Darren is like, growing up before he got into property, before he became one of the best coaches in Australia. Like what were you doing as you're growing up? You grew up in in Melbourne, right? 

Darren Krakowiak 

I did. I was born in Melbourne. So, I guess I was never a sporty kid I was always more interested in things like radio. So, radio was something that I did. Community radio and a little bit of commercial radio. Growing up, high school and university, you know, I was someone who probably gravitated towards leadership. So, I'd always run for Form Captain, usually Form Captain and I'd always be on the SRC. I was on the debate team. So, I was one of those kids, like, so a little bit dorky, but still, I guess maybe friends with some of the right people. So, not a complete dork. But yeah, that was me growing up and never really thought about commercial real estate or real estate at all. But one thing I did have, I guess was the gift of the gab. So, as a person with I guess, extraversion and a lack of my own voice, probably a career in real estate or in sales or something in that, it was probably in the cards.

Will Tong 

So, at what age did you realize you had that gift of the gab?

Darren Krakowiak 

You know I can remember in primary school, one of my nicknames was Luna Park because I have a big mouth. So, people in Sydney and Melbourne might not know, but Luna Park is an amusement park where the entrance is a massive mouth. And you know, some of the teacher’s kind of got me and they know how to, I guess, motivate me and channel that energy, but some of them would give me very low marks for behavior. I was always academically good. But I think I was probably a challenge for some teachers, because I had a lot of energy. I was one of those people who would question things. You know, back in that day, even in public schools, they would have religious education. And you know, I'd be asking difficult questions, which eventually led to me being put with all the other kids who didn't come from Anglo Christian Homes because I was difficult in that class. So, I guess, I was maybe someone who questioned things a little bit. And yeah, I think leadership was always something that I was interested in as well. That sort of carried through into my career. 

Will Tong 

Yeah. Excellent. And so, you studied primary school, high school in Melbourne. And what was the path to property?  Was property always a thing you wanted to do?

Darren Krakowiak 

Not at all. So, I did a bachelor of economics and a bachelor of commerce, double degree at Monash in Melbourne. And the first job that I got out of university happened to be for a property economics firm. That was the firm that is now known as Urbis. So back then, it was a company called Jebb Holland Dimasi, which was lately which was later emerged with Urbis, become Urbis JHD.  And then I think they've dropped the JHD now. And that was a company that specialised in providing Shopping Centre owners and large format retailers with consulting reports on their turnover forecasting. You know, if you renovate this center, if you refurbish this location, this is the sort of uplift in revenue. You can expect based on the mapping of the trade area and the amount of spending in that trade area and the market shares and stuff like that.  So that is kind of where property came in, but it was more from a, I guess an economic kind of lens. And after that, I worked for a company called M3 Property, which back then was only really in Melbourne, but now it's a national valuations firm for commercial. And I was in research there. And then I got the opportunity to work for JLL. And a lot of your audience would know Nerida Conisbee.  And when Nerida went off to have her second baby, I was the maternity leave replacement for her to come in and run research in Victoria at JLL. At that time, and I remember thinking, "Oh, I don't know if I want to go and work for an agency." I mean, that's not very, you know, maybe I was a bit uppity and a bit of a snob, but I thought, you know, that real estate agents, like, I don't know if I should be doing that, but I did really like the international opportunities that JLL offered.  I was around 25 at the time and I think I was interested in opportunities to work overseas. And JLL was certainly an avenue to fill that endeavor. So, I took on that opportunity and to give JLL full credit. Within two years they gave me the opportunity then to go and work in South Korea.

Will Tong 

Great. I spent about four years working at JLL as well and great company, one of the best companies I've ever worked for. And I must say out of all the research hubs, probably research hubs available in Australia, JLL is probably number one. 

Darren Krakowiak 

That would be true. You know, they sell their research as well. And they invest very heavily in it. And yeah, I can remember thinking it was a very important thing that we were all doing at research at the time. I think, you know, related to my I guess, passion for leadership, I was managing the team of what was called strategic researchers. So, the people that were conduits into the business, I was managing that national team as well as running the Victorian research team. And yeah, like I thought it was really important and I like the fact that JLL invested in it. And that was actually the role that I took when I went into Korea as well. I was doing research and also some consulting work.

Will Tong 

Yeah. So, JLL is across many multiple countries across the world. So why did you choose South Korea?

Darren Krakowiak 

Didn't really choose it. So, the first role that they offered me was something in Hong Kong.  And I didn't take that because I didn't like the role. It was to be like the head of industrial research for Asia. I thought, "Oh, that sounds a bit.” Maybe that would be a lot more exciting now. But back then, industrial wasn't really a very sexy asset class. It was probably the ugly duckling of the office retail at Industrial three. So, I didn't take that. And then Korea came up. And it was around May when it came up and they said, "Why don't you go over there and have a look?" So, they flew me over there and you know, this was 2007 pre GFC when, you know, people really gave the corporate credit card a hardworking and they showed me a good time and I thought, "I can live here." And May is actually a beautiful time of the year to be in Korea in terms of the weather. It's perfect. So, I took up that opportunity and you know, I thought probably it was a stepping stone to somewhere else like within Asia, I guess. But ended up staying there for 11 years and you know, from that role then moved into at JLL tenant rep. So, when the GFC happened a lot more expensive people were let go. And I was, I guess, a relatively cheap resource for them to keep in the country at the time. I was sort of doing a little bit of help with tenant rep. Like when people from overseas would come, I would help out with like doing the tours of the market and stuff like that. They said, "Well, why don't you just do that?" So, I did. And you know, eventually it was a good time to cut your teeth in transactions because there wasn't a lot of transactions happening. So, the company had very low expectations in 2009 of sort of the amount of runs on the board that you could get. But one good thing that JLL did have was a good network of regional clients. So, there were these opportunities to actually just do some transactions. And that was sort of how I built up a bit of track record and then built from there.

Will Tong 

Great. And how's your Korean?

Darren Krakowiak 

Not very good. I can read Korean. But it's all phonetic, right? So, there's Hangul, is a phonetic, you know, writing system. So, I can read it. And I have basic, sort of vocabulary. But my grammar's not very good. I've tried to learn it a few times, but I never. That wasn't the reason why I was in Korea. You know, when I worked at JLL and later at CBRE, I was not there to speak Korean. I was there to help with, I guess multinational companies and also help with building the business.

Will Tong 

That’s fascinating cause I've never worked overseas. So, I don't have the perspective of what it would be like in a foreign country with a language that's not native to me. So, I'd imagine to be successful. I mean, obviously you ultimately became the managing director of South Korea. So, I'd imagine there'll be instances where your Korean skills were tested, right?

Darren Krakowiak 

I think my people's skills were tested, not so much my Korean skills. So yeah, what happened was, I was at JLL for a few years running office leasing and tenant rep. And then CBRE approached me to become the country head of their business. And I think, the lesson is that outside of Australia, I was given opportunities that I would not have been given if I was in Australia. And that's not to say that I didn't deserve them or I didn't work hard for them. But I think that being willing to take on that responsibility and also being willing to, I guess, get out of your comfort zone. And by that point, by the time I joined CBRE, (I'd been in Korea for eight years) I think, one of the needs of the CBRE Korea business at the time was for it to be more attached to the global and the regional platform. It was sort of like running it its own little island. So, one of the things that they wanted me to do was to really get the CBRE way incorporated into the local career business.

Will Tong 

Right. That almost never works.

Darren Krakowiak 

I think it did work. Like, if I look at what was achieved at the time I was there in terms of the growth of the business and sort of where it is now, I think it all starts with leadership, right? And previously there was not so much, I guess, connection between the global platform and the regional platform and the local market. Because I think the way I should put it was that, you know, we're a global company that does business in Korea. We're not a Company in Korea that happens to be global or something. I can't remember. I had a phrase that I put around to try and get people thinking a little bit more about the help and the opportunities that could come from connecting with the global platform. I think partly it's also cosmetic, right? Because them putting me in that position, someone who didn't speak Korean, someone who wasn't Korean, someone who at the time was 35 years old, that was in itself, what I represented was change. Because previously there was a Korean gentleman who was actually Korean American, actually, but he was more Korean in his approach. So, me in that seat, it symbolized change and then change sort of came from that. And back to your question in terms of speaking Korean, I didn't really speak Korean, but I think in Korea and you know, you might know from some other cultures in Asia, it's very hierarchical and it's really important how old you are and all of that sort of stuff. And you know, I was seen as too young and I think that was a challenge for me for the first sort of 6 to 12 months was to be. Not trying to prove myself or prove I went wrong, but just to establish myself in that position and to show that I was actually capable of the responsibility that the company had entrusted me with.

Will Tong 

So, how long were you there for at CBRE?

Darren Krakowiak 

Three years?

Will Tong 

So, what changes did you see in the business landscape?

Darren Krakowiak

So, probably, I tried to break down some of the Korean ways of doing business while still being respectful of the fact that we are in Korea, right? So, I can think of some examples without disparaging anyone. You know, some of the older staff would be quite hard on the younger staff. And some of this is tied up in the fact they have mandatory or compulsory military service and that's sort of the way things run. But you know, I was trying to get people to be a little bit more even in their approach or less heavy handed. And you know, that involved sometimes leading by example, but also it meant having to direct people to change their behavior at time. So that was a change that was happening inside the business that I was in. So, that was a change that was happening inside the business that I was in. But more broadly outside of the Korea business that I was in was just the increasing amount of foreign capital that was coming into the market, which actually made the approach a little bit more global. So, I think it was a good time for me to be making those changes because actually that equipped the business to be better able to work more cooperatively with all the foreign capital that was flowing in, but also foreign capital was flowing out. Because you know, huge growth of Korean pension funds and sovereign wealth funds and so forth meant that there was this huge opportunity that perhaps was going untapped. And maybe, you know, some of our competitors at the time were doing a better job of actually taking advantage of whereas, I think by the time I left and certainly in terms of where it is now, I think it's way, way ahead.

Will Tong 

Yeah. That's fascinating. So, after you left CBRE, what are your next steps?

Darren Krakowiak 

I came back to Australia, so I got married. And I came back to Australia with JLL. So, I was working in the Melbourne team in tenant representation. And I guess that was where I started to have a little bit of a pivot. So, I came back to Melbourne.

Will Tong 

And what year was this?

Darren Krakowiak 

This was 2019. So, I came back. And one thing I noticed that was going on was, I had always been, well, not always, but probably for the previous eight or nine years, I'd been trying to help myself be better through, you know, personal and professional development. And I came back to Melbourne. I thought that maybe we'd be further ahead in Australia than we were in Korea, because it's a bigger platform and it's just more of a, I don't know, a modern market or whatever. But what I saw was that there were people in the residential market, your Josh Phegan, your Tom Panos. And you know, everyone else in between, in terms of those if you like extremes, that we're providing this leadership, this support, this coaching for the residential real estate sector and that there was no one that I could see that was doing it for the commercial real estate industry. So, I saw that as a real one gap in the market to an opportunity to lead, but in a different way. And as it happened in early 2020, COVID rolled around. And you know, just before that I got made redundant anyway. So, I had a very clear idea in my mind about what I wanted to do next. I'd done things like design the logo and acquired the domain name of CRE Success. So, I'd done a lot of thinking, so I was ready to go. That the only problem was, of course, that COVID had just started. So, it wasn't a really great time to start a business. But at the same time, I think it probably was a good time because it meant that I could be a little bit more patient. Because it takes time when you're starting a new business, particularly one that I think isn't really proven in terms of like, you know, is there a market for this? So, it just meant that, maybe I gave myself a little bit more grace in terms of the amount of growth that I was willing to accept or that I was hoping for that in those early stages.

Will Tong 

So, when you were first starting off in the coaching business, what were some of the key values and messages you were trying to give across to your clients?

Darren Krakowiak 

Yes. I remember, one of the first things I did was I wrote this little eBook, a mini eBook called ‘The 5 Ps of Commercial Real Estate Success’. And I thought that I would share this as a sort of a way to sort of communicate who I am and a bit about values. So, the five Ps were Passion, Persistence, Positive thinking, Preparation and Professionalism. So, those were the five sort of characteristics which I felt were really important in order to be successful in this industry. And probably ‘Passion’ was the one that didn't come obvious to me earlier. You know, I can remember at one point at some stage when I was at CBRE, one of the, you know, we used to have these forums where the CEO would come in and the staff would ask a few questions. Maybe I asked once at JLL and someone else asked it at CBRE is like, “What would you recommend that we focus on to be successful?” And, you know, the CEOs had their answer. And I thought, well, what would someone ask me? And I came up with my answers and then, so I was ready to go with those answers. But then I thought ‘Passion’ is the other one because you've got to have, maybe not a passion for the industry. I don't know if you necessarily need that, but you need to be passionate about something that you can apply in the industry. So, you've got that sort of internal motivation to continue to improve and to, I guess the point of writing a mini eBook is to sort of point out like, you know, where is that drive and that determination going to come from.

Will Tong 

So, can you elaborate on that? Because we hear passion thrown around a lot, especially in social media these days, but I personally don't have a great grapple on what it should mean. I've got my own, obviously, interpretation and perceptions. But in your view, what is passion and why is it so important? And why do you have any, you know, as one of your core values?

Darren Krakowiak 

So, I think it just provides a bit of purpose to what you're doing. So, like when I'm talking about certain aspects of commercial real estate, if there's I guess, sort of nothing behind, it's kind of hollow. So, I think, the importance of passion is to make sure that we're not just empty vessels or we're not too academic or we're not too transactional, but actually where, you know, we might be visionary or we might be soulful or we might be, you know, it's just that anchor of realness. And again, it could come because, you know, a lot of people who work in real estate have been like their parents or someone that they respected or admired worked in real estate. Or you know, for others, it might just be, I don't know, right? But for me, I never really knew why I was there. So, for me it was never an answer that naturally came. But then I kind of thought, well, actually that my passion is the leadership side of things. And like, you know, so you asked me what I was like when I was a kid and I only realized that very much that I always was putting my hand up for leadership responsibility. And so, I guess that's sort of where the passion was and that's why I think in the roles that I had in real estate, it was more about the leadership side and helping others to become better and to achieve something and to achieve something for the business. I think that's what sort of lit me up. And I can't exactly remember the context of the question about why a passion, but I think it's like, you've got to have something there. Otherwise, you're just sort of working for a paycheck, right? And there's no real motivation to sort of keep going.

Will Tong 

And do you see ‘Passion’ in commercial real estate professionals? I mean, I'm asking from perspective because I've been doing real estate basically all my adult life. And I remember when I was younger, early in my career, I was very doubtful that I was in the right career. Like I was kind of good at real estate, but I felt like maybe I wasn't really in the right profession. So, I had a lot of doubt. And I think that was reflected in my performance. I think it was later on when I was probably about almost 30, where I then realized I actually like real estate. Probably not for the reasons that I thought I liked it for when I was younger. So, I think when I was younger, I thought real estate is just a nice way of making above average money for in my mind, you know, law effort. Because I look at all my friends who just graduated university. They're working as lawyers and accountants. And they're working in 50 hours, 60 hours. And I'm a real estate agent. I'm working like 35, 40 hours, and I'm making probably more than that. So, for me, as a young guy back then, I thought, "Oh, this is just a pretty good way to make more money." But I didn't really enjoy it until I think I was a little bit older. Actually, I really like real estate because they should more to just making money. I'm a lot more of a problem solver for my client. And I think that's how I found my passion in real estate.

Darren Krakowiak 

So, I think a lot of people, before they find their passion there, they don't just make some money. Or because to do it because it's easier than doing something else because it comes easy to them. So yeah, the money is often a motivator, but we've got to get beyond what the money is to find out, “Well, why does that matter,” right? Like what is it that the money is going to get you. It could be significance, right? We just want to be seen as successful. That is actually other motivator as opposed to the money itself. It could be to provide for a future that you want for your family. Or it could be to, without getting too psychological, it could be to prove your daddy wrong or whatever. Whatever it is that you're looking for. And I think the reason why the ‘Passion’ is important is because, perhaps as you might have figured out is like, if you're going to continue and stay in this industry, if you don't have any passion, then there's like, it's just burnout, right? Because, I would say perseverance without passion isn't grit, it's just a grind, right? So, if we can find a sort of reason to be and have that passion within us, then it gets easier to do the things that help us be successful in that industry. So, I think, lack of passion will get you some way, but it can lead to dangerous paths, I think, in terms of distraction substance abuse. You know, the wrong types of motivators or just burnout. And I think that's why some people don't last in the industry even after they come in with a bang.

Will Tong 

Yeah, absolutely. So, on that note, I'm curious to understand, obviously you're coaching a lot of high performers in the industry. What are some of the top problems commercial real estate agents have? And second question is what are the top problems commercial real estate agency owners have?

Darren Krakowiak 

So, most of my private coaching clients are commercial real estate principals, the business owners. But I'll talk a bit about the agents as well because I have a digital course for them. And that was sort of what I was doing earlier in my business. There's sort of three main things that is the problem for them. Either they don't have enough leads, they're not converting the leads at the optimum rate. Or they don't know how to accelerate their production through things like processes or having the right team or using the right systems, if you like. So, it's generally those three things. And yeah, that what I would say for the agents as the three problems in this obviously solutions to those problems in terms of lead generation, inbound, outbound referrals. In terms of improving your conversion rate, it's around working with more of the right clients, so they continue to work with you. It's about increasing your win rate in itself. And then with business owners, probably the three main challenges around people, so it's not being able to find the right people and we can go into sort of why that is and what the differences are between bigger firms and smaller firms and so forth. So, it's people. It's clients. So, often I think we're focusing on all the clients rather than specializing or saying that these are the types of clients that will serve. And we hang on to bad clients because we've worked hard to get them and we don't actually then make the room for the ideal clients that we're best placed to serve. So, we've got to focus on the right clients when we're running a business. And finally, we've got to let go of certain things as a business owner. This is also relevant for commercial real estate agents. Staying within your zone of genius, the stuff you're good at, the stuff you get paid for and the stuff you enjoy. But then we need a business that works so you're not overworked. So, we need certain systems in place. We need a plan, right? We need a financial plan. We need some strategic priorities to actually provide some direction and focus for the business. So, that the main sort of things and I think you know, it's about leadership for agents. It can be around having the right person who can either be a good role model and is capable of showing them the right way. And in terms of the leaders in commercial real estate businesses, it's about being the right leader so that you can provide that leadership that others can then, I guess move in alignment with the vision that you're trying to create.

Will Tong 

I have a question about the ideal client that you've raised. So, I know commercial real estate is extremely competitive and it's extremely territorial as well. And a lot of times we try to win listings for the sake of preventing your competition getting the listing. So, it's more of a defensive mechanism rather than a sort of, you know, actually I want to sell this property. And in my experience anyway, a lot of times, I'm strategically trying to chase a listing because I don't want CBRE or colleagues to get it.  But I find myself wasting so much time, energy, effort servicing that particular client. That's not an ideal client quote unquote, but I have to do it anyway. So, what do you say about that?

Darren Krakowiak 

You got to change your beliefs.

Will Tong 

Okay. So, walk me through that because, because I’m just looking back at what I've done in the past when I was working in an agency. You kind of go, well I want to make money. That's, you know, I want to hit my target. It's very important, but I also don't want that guy.

Darren Krakowiak 

Yeah. So, there's a couple of things that you said. One is schadenfreude, right? You know what schadenfreude is, which is the German word for having getting pleasure out of someone else's misfortune. Which is kind of like the reason why you might like somebody to not win that work just because you don't want them to win. But in a world which is abundant, there is plenty of opportunities for all of us. So, I would be encouraging people who are thinking like that to, and you gave the answer, you said it's much harder for you to win that work. It's more difficult. It's more headaches once you get the work. So, don't worry about it. Let them have it. Because the busier that they are doing that type of work, the less time that they have to be chasing the clients that you want to work with. But even then, I would say we live in a world of a button. So, we don't need to worry about that anyway, because there's plenty of clients to go around. Now, I know that's easier said than done when we're trying to build our pipeline and reach our targets and hit our financial goals, but yeah, it is a mindset thing and it's probably something that has taken me a while to learn. But I wouldn't worry too much about the competition and in terms of their results. I think it's about your own improvement. The only benefit of comparison is that it's going to make you, or there's no benefit really with it; just makes you vain or it makes you angry. So, don't worry about what others are doing. Just focus on what it is that you want to do. Be really clear about the clients that you want to serve. And you know, make sure that you're best placed to be able to win that work. I don't know if I've answered your question though. 

Will Tong 

You certainly have, but I also want to push back a little bit on that because I think, in a market that we had in 2022, it was a great market. Lots of transactions and commercial property were selling left, right and Centre. And so, a lot of agency owners, you know, thrived during that period. And it come to on 2023, speaking to some of my industry colleagues, and I'm sure you have as well. Transaction volumes almost like half compared to previous year. You still got payroll. You've still got rent. You've still got all these overheads you need to pay. And the pie, I guess, figuratively speaking, like it's shrunk, right? So, how do you then kind of defend what you're saying about, or don't worry about those listings, just focus on the ideal clients where there's probably not as many opportunities to choose from in a sort of downward market?

Darren Krakowiak 

I think one of the reasons why people don't like to specialise is because of the fear of missing out, right? They feel like, "If I'm fishing in a bigger pond, then I've got more opportunities." But your conversion rate will be so much higher if you are focused very much on the ones that you are more likely to be able to be the ideal partner service provider for. So, while I understand that we might be tempted when the markets aren't, you know, as abundant as we would like to start to go outside of our specialty, that only gets us further away from what it is that we're actually there to do. And I think that actually dilutes our ability to win more of the right clients because then we don't stand for anything. Like, you know, what is it that this person does? Oh, he does a bit of that, does a bit of this. Like in terms of a business owner, you've got to have your business set up to be able to ride out those periods. So, a lot of clients talk about the importance of having a property management business that has recurring revenue to be able to support the business even when transactions get to zero, right? So, I guess again, not directly answering your question, but I'm sort of saying, "If you're coming to me as a business owner with that problem, then I guess my answer to you is grow your property management portfolio." Because that is the thing that's going to keep the lights on. And if you want to go and chase other clients, you can, but there's going to be a lower rate at which you're going to win those clients because that's not your natural, I guess, strength. And it's going to take you away from your ability to be able to serve more of those right clients. But it's a balance, right? Like, I get people are tempted to do that. But it only gets you further away, I think. You know, from being able to be the known, liked and trusted, specialty expert in that niche in that territory in which you are operating.

Will Tong 

No, that's, that's great feedback. Yeah. I want to ask about also importance of branding. Because obviously, you know, we were talking about niches. And like a zonal genius and being a specialist, how important is it I suppose a personal brand in the industry and the company brand? And when I say company brand, I'm also want to elaborate, I'm also talking about the big companies, the JLLs and CBREs versus the boutique companies that we're seeing pop up everywhere now. So maybe, you know, what are your views on the importance of personal brand in this industry and also the company brand?

Darren Krakowiak 

So, I think the personal brand is more important than the company brand. So, if I was coaching an individual, I'd be saying to them to really invest hard in their personal brand, because that's something that it can't be copied. It can't be taken away from them. It belongs to you, right? The brand of your company doesn't belong to you. The company could, if you say, "You know, I live and breathe Company X. And then Company X becomes Company Y because of a takeover," then you've lost your branding or you're not who you said you were. Whereas you're always yourself. So, I think that's proven through when high performing agents then walk across the street. Usually most of their business comes with them because people are interested in doing business with the person, not really doing business with the brand. Now I think if you're a middling agent, if you're someone who perhaps you know, doesn't want to work that hard, or maybe you don't have all of the natural ability, certainly the brand that you work for can give you a little bit of support. But.  I would be more focused on my personal brand as an individual than I would be on the company brand. But at the same time, I think, you know, as a business owner, if you own a boutique business, the brand is really important because it's one of the differentiators that you have because people high performing agents are generally more attracted to working for the bigger firms just because there's a bit more gravitas with that. So, if you want to have the ability to attract good people and even not high performing agents, but just quality people, then the branding is important. But also, your personal branding is, right? Because who you are as a leader, the culture within the office, that's all going to be relevant in terms of your ability to be able to attract the right people and the right clients to the firm.

Will Tong 

Yeah. So that goes back to solving one of the initial problems, one of the problems that agency owners have, which is the hiring good talent and retaining good talent. So, having that good personal brand and company brand can also assist with attracting good talent or retaining?

Darren Krakowiak 

Yeah, I kind of ask my clients to focus on three things when it comes to attracting people. So, the first one is around the culture, right? Actually, now the first one is the vision, right? So, we've got to have a clear idea about you know, where this business is going, why that matters to the leader, but also why it happens to the people that we're dealing with our employees and our clients. And, you know, have some idea about what the future success is going to look like. Because then that allows us to talk   in a visionary way to prospective clients. And that can be a magnet that can attract people into the business. So, I think, the vision is important. The meetings that are conducted within the business are important. So, I think one advantage that boutique businesses can have that bigger businesses don't is there's less BS meetings. You also at the same time though, have more access to the person who's in charge, right? Because it's a smaller business. And that is something that you can provide as an attraction tool and also as a retention tool to be able to say that you've got direct support from somebody who is the owner of the business. And I really strongly recommend one on one meetings as one way to builds that relationship and to help people be better and to make sure that everything that's important to the leader and the way that things are seen by the leader are reflected inside the organization with the people. So yeah, we've got vision, we've got meetings, and then the last one is culture, right? And culture, I think in a smaller business is more important than it is in a bigger business. So, a lot of my clients, if I ask them about culture, one of the things they'll tell me is, well, we've got a no dickhead policy, right? And no big business can tell me they've got that. Because a lot of dickheads will slip through the cracks in a big business. But in a smaller business, there's nowhere to hide if you are a dickhead. And there's also nowhere to hide if you're an underperformer, right? So, if the owner has high standards, then you know, they can create an organization which is a high-performance culture, which will be an attractor to some people who don't want to be you know, around plodders or around hangers on. And I think inside bigger businesses, obviously there are some great leaders. And bigger business was businesses often have the advantage of being able to attract more of the best people because they are the biggest businesses. But there are also a lot of hangers on and because they're just so large, right? It's the business doesn't have the ability to be able to I guess, control all a hundred thousand employees. Whereas a boutique business of 20 people, there's nowhere to hide. If you are one of those things that I mentioned before.

Will Tong 

Yeah. So, what are some practical tactics that a leader can use to improve culture?

Darren Krakowiak 

So, be clear about your values, right? So, what's important to you and then talk about that constantly. So, just when you are sick of hearing it in your own voice will be when other people start to notice that you're saying it. So, you've got to be just keep hammering at home, hammering at home, hammering at home. So, talking a lot about your values, being willing to call out people who are behaving in a way which isn't consistent with the values, particularly if we we're clear on our values and we've had a conversation with prospective employees before they joined about, 'this is what our values are. You know, while we don't want it.' I don't know what we have to say, you know, you must agree with all my values. We want to know that people can adhere to those values. Or hopefully there is some, I guess, resonance with the values that you have. And also, when people are doing the right thing, we want to call out that great behavior and reward and recognize people who are acting in a way which is consistent with our values. So, I think, there probably you know, there are a few ways to build culture. I think, you know, if we're building performance-based cultures as well, then there's certain things that we can do in terms of. You know, compensation and benefits and performance reviews. The one-on-one meetings are really important because we can talk about the way that we would approach things. And that is partly a values-based conversations. It's based on principles rather than, you know, on specific scenarios. So yeah, there's a few ways to build culture.

Will Tong 

Yeah, that's great. That's amazing!